Real Estate Forums

skeptik · 02-09-2006, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenng

It may have been only 2 weeks of education and pass tests to get a real estate license, however, there are skills and experience to be learned, similar to an intern or resident.

Just as doctors within a discipline have varying degrees of skill and knowledge, it is the same with real estate agents.

A good or excellent real estate agent has to have more knowledge than just sign on the dotted line. I will readily admit that there are some real estate agents out there that should not have licenses to practice this profession.

The basic issue here that is presented is that you feel there is direct corrolation between education and renumeration. However, it is truly skill, knowledge and problem solving abilities that is what people pay for.

My personal thought is that there are 2 different real estate agents in the industry today - those that take a sales approach and those that take a consultive approach. Perhaps, you ran into an agent that takes the sales approach.

One of the things that you did not mention in your earlier comments was the commission percentage that the agent was going to charge.

Personally, being a broker I can set what I would consider a reasonable fee for my services, in a case such as your's. My fee would be probably between one-third and one-half of the normal fee.

When in the hospital financial profession - there were instances where a patient could have an issue with a physician. It was my responsibility as part of the risk management committee, to review the patient's medical record, consult with medical professionals to determine if there was any exposure and propose a solution. I can honestly tell you that I was earning far less than the doctors, but actually saved them reputation and monetarily. How do you justify that? (FYI - I only have 5 years of education - not 10 years.)

In closing - book smarts does not necessarily make for skill, knowledge nor the ability to amicably resolve problems.

Geez, the medical practice must not too bad, since docs have expensive homes, expensive cars, country club memberships, etc. Maybe, this is why our country has issues with the high costs of healthcare and health insurance???!!!

Now, justify the charges for physicians and hospitals for us.

"I can honestly tell you that I was earning far less than the doctors, but actually saved them reputation and monetarily. How do you justify that?"

That's easy. You were doing your job and getting paid by the fees that were collected for physician services.

"Geez, the medical practice must not too bad, since docs have expensive homes, expensive cars, country club memberships, etc. Maybe, this is why our country has issues with the high costs of healthcare and health insurance???!!!"

Some doctors do have expensive stuff. Neurosurgeons make close to a million a year. Don't put yourself in this place to be compared. Let's see here, brain surgery vs. showing someone how a closet works while you pick their pocket.

Even then, not all docs make a ton of money any more. The average FP doc makes about $120K. But this isn't about who makes what. It's about the way real estate agents charge people. I just don't agree with something as ambiguous as taking a percentage cut based on a home's value. At least it should be graduated.

As far as justifying charges... I could write for hours on that one. But, to get a real answer, ask the gov't or HMO about it. They're the ones who set our fees now, not us.

In closing, don't get ignorant with me, as I will only exaggerate your ignorance.

skeptik · 02-09-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Las Vegas Homes

G550, after cafeful consideration, I have decided that you put it best! LOL, if it is so simple and so lucrative, then why not do it skeptik? I am confused....Additionally to that, what is your point for being on the site if only to complain about how much money we make as Realtors? What do you feel is a fair amount of compensation? If an average 3% commission is so outragoeus, then why do people agree to pay it? I am just haveing trouble understanding what you are trying to accomplish here....

You've turned this into an income issue. It's not that. See other posts.

HHI Golf Guy · 02-09-2006, 10:10 PM

I have responded to some of skeptiks concerns on this thread.

Quote:

I understand all of that. I understand the need for all of that. It still doesn't justify paying thousands of dollars difference based on the value of the home being sold.

When you book a hotel room through a travel agent they take a percentage of the revenue - usually anywhere from 8% to 10%. It doesn't matter if you book a room at the Motel 6 or the Ritz Carlton - they take the same percentage cut. Now tell me, did the travel agent do any more work to book the $599 a night room at the Ritz than they did to book the $39 room at the Motel 6?

Heck, if you book a room on Travelocity or Expedia they take their own cut - and you are the one doing all the work in booking the room!

Quote:

I do realize that most are forced to list after trying to sell on their own. This is my point. If it wasn't so mafia-like using the MLS like a market-cornering thug, more people would be successful and not be forced into giving up their equity.

No one is forced to list after trying it on their own. They can go the FSBO route forever. The fact is that most FSBO sellers do not have the knowledge or expertise to properly market their own home - especially in a togh seller's market.

The MLS is not the magic wand that sells a home. If it was, agents would not invest tens of thousands of dollars of their own money in print media and other forms of advertising. (There are agents in my market that spend $100k+ a year in advertising!). What it does is do is allow the home to have almost immediate access to hundreds of agents that are actively looking for homes for their buyer clients.

Your FSBO listing can receive plenty of exposure to potential home buyers - but you need to know where to advertise and what target demographic you should advertise to - that's where an experienced agent is well worth their commission.

glenng · 02-10-2006, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skeptik

As far as justifying charges... I could write for hours on that one. But, to get a real answer, ask the gov't or HMO about it. They're the ones who set our fees now, not us.

In closing, don't get ignorant with me, as I will only exaggerate your ignorance.

First, physician fee components and facility/hospital are separate and distinct. My salary came out the facility/hospital component.

The reason the good doctor says "ask the gov't or HMO about it. They're the ones who set our fees, not us.", is because what he does not want to say, is that 1) gov't programs such as medicare and medicare do set the REIMBURSEMENT fees not the charges that we see on our physician bills; 2) the difference between actual charges and reimbursement amounts is called contractual adjustments; 3) the HMO's and PPO's do not set the rates - THEY ARE NEGOTIATED BETWEEN THE PHYSICIAN THE PLAN!; 4) there is no control over what a physician can charge, they are limited to reimbursement from the gov't or managed care plans; 5) due to the fact that the medical services are not rendered in a cost effective manner the gov't program reimbursements result in a "short fall" - this produces what is called "cost-shifting"; 6) cost shifting results in higher fees being charged, however to those patients that have traditional insurance plans, non-insured, or elect to pay themselves; 7) as part of many of the gov't insurance programs or managed care programs (HMO's or PPO's) contracts there are specific time frames for payment with penalties (interest charges) for payment; 8) with HMO plans certain disciplines within the physician profession are paid $x per patient per month regardless if the physician sees the patient or not. In essence, the physician is getting paid without rendering any service. (I suspect that this doctor is a family practitioner and has this type of arrangement with some of the HMO's he has contracted with, as he specifically calls out FP earns $120k and further is upset by a real estate agent earning $100k per year - hope you all see the correlation here.); 9) many physicians do not have the databases nor fiscal systems to analyze their businesses from a financial standpoint in order to successfully negotiate a contract.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skeptik

I went to school for 10+ years, have people's lives in my hands, and have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in educational debt and I don't make that much.

Whenever a physician says something like the above it shows they have an elisti attitude - there is no reason to argue with them, because the rest of us are nothing and not worthy in their eyes.

skeptik · 02-10-2006, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenng

First, physician fee components and facility/hospital are separate and distinct. My salary came out the facility/hospital component.

The reason the good doctor says "ask the gov't or HMO about it. They're the ones who set our fees, not us.", is because what he does not want to say, is that 1) gov't programs such as medicare and medicare do set the rates; 2) the HMO's and PPO's do not set the rates - THEY ARE NEGOTIATED BETWEEN THE PHYSICIAN THE PLAN!; 3) due to the fact that the medical services are not rendered in a cost effective the gov't program reimbursements result in a "short fall" - this produces what is called "cost-shifting"; 4) cost shifting results in higher fees being charged to those patients that have traditional insurance plans, non-insured, or elect to pay themselves; 5) as part of many of the gov't insurance programs or managed care programs (HMO's or PPO's) contracts there are specific time frames for payment with penalties (interest charges) for payment; 6) with HMO plans certain disciplines within the physician profession are paid $x per patient per month regardless if the physician sees the patient or not. In essence, the physician is getting paid without rendering any service.

Oh, yes, you're right there. We are snarling vicious theives ripping people off that we don't even see. Oh, yea, that one other thing... we get about ten bucks if they do come in no matter how much we spend on materials to sew them up, cast their arm, etc etc. We just have to eat the rest. But you're right. The poor HMOs are getting screwed. Good point.

And, where do you think that facility component came from? Without the docs to admit and care for patients, do you think there would be a facility component???

And I grouped gov't and insurance in one statement for convenience, because yes, insurance negotiate rates and gov't sets the rates. You're reaching here...

Enough of this, we've got work to do. I'll go see patients, and you slick your hair back, grab your satchel, and go latch onto some blue collar hard working family's home equity. You deserve it.

glenng · 02-10-2006, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skeptik

Oh, yes, you're right there. We are snarling vicious theives ripping people off that we don't even see. Oh, yea, that one other thing... we get about ten bucks if they do come in no matter how much we spend on materials to sew them up, cast their arm, etc etc. We just have to eat the rest. But you're right. The poor HMOs are getting screwed. Good point.

And, where do you think that facility component came from? Without the docs to admit and care for patients, do you think there would be a facility component???

And I grouped gov't and insurance in one statement for convenience, because yes, insurance negotiate rates and gov't sets the rates. You're reaching here...

Enough of this, we've got work to do. I'll go see patients, and you slick your hair back, grab your satchel, and go latch onto some blue collar hard working family's home equity. You deserve it.

Sorry to hear that you could not negotiate more than $10 per patient - also, you can bill for additional services depending upon the services rendered.

"without the docs to admit and care for patients" First, that is why hospitals have phyisician employees today. Second, you don't care for a patient when they are in the hospital, it is the nurses that care for the patient.

Speaking of blue collar hard working family's home equity - shows your elitist attitude coming out - but no mention of any free care that you render to those individuals.

Just to show how you assume things ("you slick your hair back'') - I am bald. LOL

skeptik · 02-10-2006, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenng

Sorry to hear that you could not negotiate more than $10 per patient - also, you can bill for additional services depending upon the services rendered.

"without the docs to admit and care for patients" First, that is why hospitals have phyisician employees today. Second, you don't care for a patient when they are in the hospital, it is the nurses that care for the patient.

Speaking of blue collar hard working family's home equity - shows your elitist attitude coming out - but no mention of any free care that you render to those individuals.

Just to show how you assume things ("you slick your hair back'') - I am bald. LOL

'First' I don't negotiate directly with HMOs. Nor does any one doctor.

And, 'phyisician' employees do the same thing that non-employees do; admit, provide services that the hospital charges 'phyisician' fees for, etc. And to say 'phyisicians' don't care for someone in the hospital is just plain rediculous.

And just the mention of blue collar makes me an elitist??? Now you're not making ANY sense. And I provide services for blue, white, green, or yellow collars for free every day. And I'm not even asking you to work for free. Another frivolous twisted comment trying to change what I'm saying.

This is exactly why I came into a real estate forum to see what would happen if I presented this opinion. This would've been to easy and boring in any other forum as everyone in the world who's not a real estate agent would agree with me. So, thanks for solidifying my original opinions.

lowar · 02-11-2006, 10:08 AM

Washington Post - 10/21/2005:
GM insures 1.1 million Americans and spends $1,500 on health care for each car produced in the United States. Its health care costs in 2004 were $5.2 billion, with $4 billion going to retirees, according to GM.

Washington Post - 12/11/2005:
A Ford spokeswoman said the company's costs for health care were $3.2 billion in 2004, and are projected to increase to $3.5 billion this year. GM's health care bill is expected to hit $5.6 billion this year.

Harley Shaiken UC Berkeley professor - 01/27/2006:
Ford and GM Devastate Workers by Slashing Jobs and Closing Plants
To give you an idea of the scale of this, we look at just at health insurance costs. In its U.S. operations last year, Ford lost over $2 billion. For every car it produced, it had an average cost of $1,200 for health insurance. That's more than it pays for steel in a car.

So unless and until we have national policies that address health care, we're going to have very uncompetitive manufacturing firms.

Recent AMA statistics:
46 million Americans are uninsured and another 15 million under-insured Americans = one in five Americans.

Of the uninsured - over 40% live in households with incomes of $25,000 a year or more.

$1.7 trillion a year in health care outlays, making our nation the world leader in paying for care; an average $6,100 for every man, woman and child in the country up from a little over $1,000 in 1980.

Americans spend more on health care than any other nation, some 15.3 percent of GDP last year up from 8.8 percent of GDP.

Forum members, IMHO - focus on what you determine to be most important. Doc - find yourself a real estate agent that will work with at a fee for service, hourly rate, limited service contract, etc. Real estate agent concentrate on your practice of real estate. And both of you - work towards a solution of the health care problems (including malpratice issues) which face us Americans - the USA will be far better for it.

The issues that both gentlemen have presented here are factual and are positions that have been taken by interest groups.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

G550 · 02-17-2006, 01:17 PM

I guess you could generalized the following....

If your doctor makes a mistake, you're dead. If your real estate agent makes a mistake, you'll wish you were dead....

SEOWolf · 02-19-2006, 01:54 PM

skeptik,

Everyone that knows me can vouch for the fact that I am easy going and will take a car load of crap from someone without becoming confrontational.

However, after reading your posts I am almost convinced that you are anything but a physician.

As a general rule, Doctors are (a) Highly Educated and (b) Professional.

Doctors may have a hard time writing legibly but can usually read well. You however have NOT even posted to the proper forum with your absurd remarks.

Our Members have graciously pointed out many flaws in your thinking and have attempted to explain part of the process involved in selling a home.

I believe LVH called you correctly in his first post to this thread. This is not the only Real Estate Forum that you have spewed you unintelligent commentary. I believe a Doctor would display far more professionalism than you have shown here.

A Doctor realizes the cost of doing business as much as we do.

I just had open heart surgery last October. I was on the operating table for a little over 8 hours. The cost for my surgery and hospital stay is approaching $500,000.00 and the bills are still coming in. Using your logic; that is roughly $62,500. per hour.

While I don’t have the education of the majority of our practicing physicians I am smart enough to know the Doctor did not launch his career at my operating table and has outgoing expenses just as we do. I am also smart enough to realize the Doctor only receives only a portion of the $500,000.

REALTORS® are some of the hardest working people I know and successful REALTORS® work just as hard if not harder to sharpen their skills and develop their clientele as successful Doctors do. I could go on but we both know you are NOT here to learn.

Now if a simple minded Country Boy like me can figure all of this out by myself, then you are either a fool or a fraud.

Which is it skeptic?

Just my 2¢ worth,

VegasMack